It’s the most wonderful time of the year! And to make it even more special, we have prepared a Q&A Holiday Special Episode! Even Santa himself is a Legal Design fan and joins us to bring Holiday Spirit to you dear listerners.
We wanted to celebrate the end of this milestone filled season with a Holiday Special Q&A episode. We received some brilliant (and hard!) questions from you dear listeners, thank you so much for them! So in this episode our hosts Henna & Nina are on the hot spot answering them. But to make this even more special, we have a Special Santa joining us! This Santa knows his legal design and has visited the podcast before. To make this even little more special (and magical with some Christmas spirit) we will reveal Santa’s real identity later this year. How ever, you can guess who he is and submit your guesses through social media. We will draw a prize amongst all the answers.
But, this episode is not just about Holiday spirit. We cover hard topics like what are the threats posed by legal design and what are the most challenging topics in this field. Henna & Nina share their most remembered five episodes (and believe us, it was HARD to name only five because we love all the episodes!). We discuss what we have learnt from the podcast and how our understanding or perspective to legal design has developed or changed throughout the podcasting. We also reveal our dream projects when it comes to Legal Design and Santa makes a wish for all the lawyers out there.
So Deck the Halls and join us for this Season Finale!
This week we meet with Indy Johar from Dark Matter Labs to discuss why and how our systems of governance should be reformed and why we need all professionals, including lawyers, joining this “Boring revolution”. We, of course, look things from the legal (design) perspective so we concentrate on what role (legal) design has in making our societies fit for the needs of the 21st Century.
Global crises will become more frequent in the future, due to climate change escalating other phenomena, we need to create new, agile ways to manage unpredictable force majeure type of events. There might be situations where governments have only a few hours to react in order to protect their citizens, or just 24 hours to pass a new law. The new reality will demand us to change also the way we design regulation – or what we think a regulation is in the first place. There is a tremendous need for law to change and the required work might seem overwhelming, but Indy puts us back on track and reminds us that there are examples of gigantic systemic change.
We also cover some big topics like democracy and talk about the need for creating better legal concepts and models, such as property right or legal personhood, to transform governance.
Indy Johar is focused on the strategic design of new super scale civic assets for transition – specifically at the intersection of financing, contracting and governance for deeply democratic futures.
Indy is a non-executive international Director of the BloxHub https://bloxhub.org (Denmark Copenhagen) – the Nordic Hub for sustainable urbanization and was 2016-17 Graham Willis Visiting Professorship at Sheffield University. He was also Studio Master at the Architectural Association – 2019-2020, UNDP Innovation Facility Advisory Board Member 2016-20 and RIBA Trustee 2017-20. He has taught & lectured at various institutions from the University of Bath, TU-Berlin; University College London, Princeton, Harvard, MIT and New School.
Most recently, he was awarded the London Design Medal for Innovation in 2022.
Often, when societies want to reduce crime, the idea of more severe punishments comes up. But as lawyers have learnt in criminology classes, that is certainly not the way to go. There are more and more studies showing that more severe punishments not only do not prevent crime but may actually have the opposite effect. In this episode we talk about how to fight crime by design and hear from experts Lorraine Gamman, Adam Thorpe and Marcus Willcocks who work at the Design Against Crime Research Center in the UK.
The mission of Design Against Crime Research Center is to disrupt crime by bringing together government, businesses, local communities, prisoners and returning citizens to generate strong socially responsive, co-created crime prevention strategies and crime diversion projects. Lorraine, Adam and Marcus tell about their projects and we hear what ethical aspects using design against crime have.
We discuss about how crime-doers and prisoners differ as targeted end-users or participants in a design process and how design can empower prisoners to change the path of their lives. In addition, our host Henna, inspired by her own neighborhood in Helsinki, asks questions how to approach solving local crime issues using design.
This is also a milestone for Legal Design Podcast, as this marks our 50th episode! Thank you all for your kind words and support and thank you for listening! Many more to come!
Dr. Lorraine Gamman is Professor of Design at Central Saint Martins and Director of UAL’s award-winning Design Against Crime Research Centre (DACRC), which she founded in 1999. An authority in applied social design practice, she is co-creator of a range of award-winning anti-crime product interventions and online resources that interpret and address offender techniques. Lorraine teaches in the UK and overseas as Visiting Scholar to international design schools and is currently advisor to the UK’s National Criminal Justice Arts Allowance (NCJAA). She has co-developed significant research funded projects and design outputs and presents extensively on her research and design approaches. She works with policy-makers, crime prevention practitioners, students and communities; and draws on creative teaching and learning methods to involve prisoners in designing against crime.
Adam Thorpe is Professor of Socially Responsive Design at Central Saint Martins College, University of the Arts London (UAL). He is Co Director of the Design Against Crime Research Centre and Coordinator of the UAL DESIS Lab (Design for Social Innovation and Sustainability). He is Principal Investigator of the Public Collaboration Lab, a platform for teaching & learning, knowledge exchange and research focused on participatory design for social, service and policy innovation, delivered in partnership with London Borough of Camden (2015-present). Adam is the Lead Academic for MAKE, a maker space supporting creative collaboration between residents, students and other stakeholders in Somers Town (2018-present) and leads the EU H2020 funded T Factor research for UAL which explores the potential contribution of participatory approaches to temporary urbanism to more inclusive regeneration (2020-2024).
Marcus Willcocks leads the Public Space strand of the award-winning Design Against Crime Research Centre (DACRC), at the University of the Arts London. As Research Fellow, he is also active with the Socially Responsive Design Innovation hub and Public Collaboration Lab at UAL. He fuses research-led design practice and practice-led research, through place-based, socially responsive and collaborative practices.Willcocks’ focus centres social, safer and equitable connections between people and places. In particular, how real-world applications of research learning and design practice can give way to deliverable innovations and improvements in local-level wellbeing. In his external practice, Marcus is Senior Urban Designer with Sustrans and a Design Council Expert. Marcus holds a Master’s in Design and Public Space, a Diploma in Crime Prevention through Urban Design and Planning, and a BA (Hons) in Product Design.
In this season finale, we meet with Hannele Korhonen to talk about the importance of education when making law better.
Looking from pedagogical point of view, I would say that one effective way to change the mindsets is really education, because change on the individual level is all about learning. It’s about unlearning the unhealthy or undesired ways, and learning new ones.
During this podcast series, we have discussed a lot about how to make Legal Design mainstream. Our this week’s guest, Hannele Korhonen, believes that it can be done with educating people. However, Legal Design is not taught in many law schools yet, but learning happen mostly elsewhere. In this episode, Hannele, the founder and legal designer shares the story and pedagogical philosophy behind Lawyers Design School. At Lawyers Design School, Hannele teaches the new ways of doing law to serve legal customers better and this way find more meaning and purpose to lawyers’ work. Hannele believes in social learning that encourages interaction with others. This way, students will be preparing the skills they need to be successful at work, where most learning is done through on-the-job experiences and interaction with others.
We also talk about curiosity and its meaning in design thinking processes. It takes a curios mind to be able to discover new possibilities. Lawyer’s may be used to do things the same way and they already know how it will come out. But in being curios, lawyers and other legal professionals are able to discover how to do things in a new way with better, more human-centric and client-centric results.
In addition, together with Hannele, our hosts Henna and Nina share their experience and thoughts on their joint collaboration, Sustainable Futures by Legal Design, a virtual event that was held online in November 2021.
Hannele Korhonen, LLM, BSc (Econ) and Vocational Teacher, is the Founder and Legal Designer at Lawyers Design School. She combines legal background of 20+ years with business, legal tech, legal design, service design and pedagogy. Hannele is an ex-corporate lawyer, law firm founder and co-founder in legal tech. She is an experienced teacher and workshop facilitator.
Lawyer’s Design School offers courses and workshops on legal design and design thinking for lawyers and legal teams. Our mission is to drive human-friendly and sustainable law.
Many people feel that terms and conditions of insurance contracts aren’t meant to be understood. It’s small print and full of industry specialized jargon, aiming at preventing legal risks, but, on the contrary, actually provoking them. In this episode Henna and Nina meet with Anthony Novaes, a Brazilianlawyer and legal designer, who explains the pain points of insurances and how to address them with the help of legal design.
People purchasing insurances that they don’t understand, causes problems on the next phases of the supply chain. All this makes the insurance industry the perfect candidate for legal design.
Insurance law is a one of the heavily regulated areas of law, which implies that there are many interests involved which need balancing, and particular groups that need governmental protection (or governmental control). The problem of heavy regulation is that it makes the market complex and unpredictable to navigate, especially for anyone who doesn’t have the training for that. Legal design can be of great help to make insurances more functional, and also prevent disputes related to them. Legal design can also offer alternatives to traditional legal regulation, as it can help create policy measures that satisfy the needs of the stakeholders better.
Anthony Novaes is a Brazilian Insurance, Reinsurance and Private Pensions Attorney. He is author of the first academic investigation on legal design applied to insurance and of articles focused on legal innovation, civil law, civil procedural law, legal design, and insurance. He has a Bachelor of Laws (LL.B.) from Universidade Presbiteriana Mackenzie and a postgraduate specialization in Insurance Law from Escola de Negócios e Seguros. He has attended the international executive program “Insurtechs: innovación y disrupción digital en seguros” from Pontificia Universidad Argentina and has additional degrees on design, law and innovation. He is currently specializing in Digital Business at Universidade de São Paulo. He is a member of the Brazilian section of Association Internationale de Droit des Assurances (AIDA Brasil), where he is a part of the national working group on Civil Liability Insurance. He was certified as a Legal Design Expert Practitioner by Legal Creatives. He is a teacher and coordinator of the course “Seguros 4.0” at Future Law, which offers the first discipline on legal design and insurance in the world.
The Brazilian legal system is facing many challenges and undergoing major changes due to application of new technologies. As we know, law itself changes slowly but legal design can assist in this change and bring out the positive. This week we talk to José Faleiros Jr., a Brazilian lawyer and the co-editor and co-author of the book ”Legal Design: Teoria e Prática”.
We can’t deny that there are very complex problems to be solved. A solid judicial system is crucial for democracy. To be solid, it needs to be efficient and it needs to be trustworthy. Legal Design helps to create efficiency, and as a consequence, trust.
José tells about the Brazilian legal system and its challenges. For example, in 2020 the Brazilian judicial system had 75 million legal processes lacking a solution. A solid judicial system is also crucial for democracy. And to be solid, the system needs to be efficient and trustworthy and this is where legal design can help.
José Faleiros Jr. is a Brazilian lawyer and a Ph.D Candidate in Civil Law at the University of São Paulo and also a Ph.D Candidate in Law, Technology and Innovation at the Federal University of Minas Gerais, Brazil. José has focused his professional work and his academic research on cyberlaw, especially on themes such as Internet regulation, personal data protection, AI impacts, blockchain, cryptocurrencies and tort law. José has long been interested in how design might have impacts on law and has dedicated himself to studying such impacts by investing in design as a hobby. Among other publications, he is the co-editor and co-author of the book ”Legal Design: Teoria e Prática”, published in Brazil by Editora Foco, in April 2021.
I think this is where lawyers have not managed to change the branding (of their services): people are not 100 % sure that if they go to a lawyer, their problem will be fixed. This comes back to design thinking. One of the universal traits of design thinking is that you want to empathize with the people so that you understand what they’re dealing with and what their problem is. And you want to reassure them that you have a solution to their problem.
Legal services are not famous for their human centricity. Quite contrary, legal services have a reputation for being expensive, unpredictable and lacking transparency. Design as a human centric method to enhance user experience would therefore have a lot to offer for legal services. Often lawyers might think that they are client-centric because it says so on their webpage, but how to make sure that they really are and how to start the journey towards client-centrism? And how can lawyers tell about their expertise in social media? In this episode we have a pleasure talking to Dinko Kortzanov who work as a Managing Director in the oldest marketing communications agency in Finland – McCann – where he leads a data driven creative agency, specializing in using research, data and customer insights to help brands earn a meaningful role in peoples lives.
In addition to guiding us being more client-centric, Dinko shares his tips on how to do marketing and selling in legal industry. These topics aren’t thought at law school so selling and marketing might feel a little awkward for legal service providers. But Dinko’s brilliant advice will make selling process more client-centric and can actually help lawyers deliver more meaningful and value adding services to their clients.
But why should we stop using the word “sell” ? Tune in to hear the answer.
Dinko Kortzanov is originally from Bulgaria, having arrived in Finland in the late 80’s with his diplomatic parents. Growing up in an international and diplomatic environment gave birth to his passion about human centricity already at a young age.
As his LinkedIn profile states, Dinko’s “biggest enthusiasm comes from meeting different people and helping them solve all types of challenges successfully”.
He has 10+ years or experience from marketing, and has focused his passion by utilizing Design thinking methods for different problem solvings.Currently he’s working as Managing Director in the oldest marketing communications agency in Finland – McCann – where he leads a data driven creative agency, specializing in using research, data and customer insights to help brands earn a meaningful role in peoples lives.
If you are a designer, I really think you need to work with lawyers. Law is like a box no one wants to open, unless you are a lawyer, but now this box is being opened. And there are many lawyers who want to be part of this movement. If you are a designer you can be the bridge that connects these lawyers with the final user. And your tools are part of that process
There are many ways design can be practiced, also in the legal context. Many are familiar with the methods and tools highlighted in various service design books, such as making up different user personas and prototyping with legos and cardboard boxes. But what kind of methods and techniques legal designers like to use in their real life design projects? Are there some tools that work particularly well in the legal context?
In this episode we meet Angélica Flechas, who is a legal designer both with a law and design degree from Los Andes University in Bogotá, Colombia. Angélica runs her own service design consultancy agency HÁPTICA and has a wide experience from various service design cases both in legal and other industries. Angélica shares with us her favorite design methods and tools and tells how they work when designing legal products and services. One of them is called “Frankenstein”. We also discuss why prototyping is so important and how lawyers can easily start using it to improve their performance. Hint: your daily assignments are a potential test environment. Angélica also encourages designers to engage with legal design projects. Helping lawyers to bridge the gap between their services and the clients can have a significant social impact.
Angélica Flechas is a designer and a lawyer from Los Andes University in Bogotá Colombia. She has been working on service design for 8 years, after getting in touch and falling in love with this Design wave, when presenting a paper at the Global Service Design Conference in Helsinki in 2012 – Servdes. Six years ago, she decided to create her own Service Design Consultancy Agency – HÁPTICA – where she runs as Founder, Service and Legal designer Consultant, and as General Manager. She has worked for different industries such as: retail, finance, hospitality, health care, insurance, education, construction, government, law offices, among others. She is also a teacher in the undergraduate program for Business Administration at Los Andes University.
“I am not expecting law firms to be innovative, I’m not expecting law firms to be software houses. If I want a software, I go to a software house, if I want legal advice, I go to a law firm. I think for me the trick is to be in a law firm that is 20 to 30 percent more innovative than their peers.”
We are living very exceptional times to work as a lawyer. The innovation game is on in the legal industry, and law firms are not excluded from it. New legal roles are created and the dominant players are yet to emerge. Working as today’s lawyer differs greatly from the era of our grandparents, although it might be overwhelming to figure out what still has to change and what can remain. Should law firms of the day be like software houses and start selling legal design services?
In this episode we are joined by Marco Imperiale to discuss legal innovation, and its do’s and don’ts. Marco is an innovation and design thinking veteran in the legal industry and has years of experience in hands-on innovation work. Marco shares his thoughts and ideas about how to start the innovation work in law firms and what to focus on. For lawyers who are not that keen on the change, the good news is that there will always be a need for traditional legal expertise too. But to make the most of it for the clients, it’s good to start working in multidisciplinary teams and try to be at least a bit more innovative than the competitors. We also discuss why selling legal design services is so difficult, but why buying them is a good for any company that seeks for positive transformation. At the end of the episode Marco, who is also a trained mindfulness trainer, shares his tips for calming the mind in the midst of the busiest season.
Marco Imperiale is a lawyer, a mediator, and the head of innovation at LCA Studio Legale.He has extensive experience in legal design, legal tech, and in the interplay of copyright law and the entertainment industry. Whenever he finds time, he also works as a teaching fellow for Harvard Law School (CopyrightX course) and as a mindfulness trainer. Marco is an avid passionate of innovation in its broader meaning, and he is the author – together with Barbara de Muro – of the first Italian book on legal design, published by Giuffré Francis Lefebvre.
Making legal information more comprehensibleand easier to use is a central theme in legal design. It is also a topic that has recently gained increasing research interest, sparking new ideas on how to enhance the usability of contracts and other legal documents in practice.
Research has shown that understanding what a document says, is all about human metacognition. If users are enabled to connect the content of a legal document with ideas that are meaningful to them, it can help avoid “cognitive accidents” and work as a proactive method to promote legal wellbeing of the users and other parties. When users can understand what is expected of them, legal conflicts and misbehavior due to misunderstandings are less likely to occur.
Rob and Helena share insights from their various projects and collaborations, like the contract simplification project with an energy industry facility and Canadian aboriginals. We also hear what proactive law is, and practical tips about how to improve the usability of legal documents. If you want to know what makes a good (legal) document, tune in!
Helena Haapio is a lawyer on a mission to change the way contracts and law are perceived, presented, and taught. She is a lawyer and contract strategist by day and a researcher, author, and editor by night. She has had the good fortune of working with information designers and plain language experts who have taught her a lot. She is a co-founder and co-creator of the WorldCC Contract Design Pattern Library and currently co-editing two books for Edward Elgar, one on Contract Design and the other on Legal Design.
Helena is an Associate Professor of Business Law at the University of Vaasa, Finland, and a Contract Strategist at Lexpert Ltd. In addition to her doctorate and LLM, she is proud to hold a Master of Quality degree. Like engineers, Helena wants everything she does to be functional, useful, and usable.
Rob Waller’s recent work is in the growing field of legal information design, working to improve consumer and business contracts through plain language, usable design and visualization. His other current focus is the Information Design Summer School, which introduces non-specialists to theories and techniques that help to simplify complex information.
Semi-retired from a career in research, teaching and consultancy, Rob has more time now for renovating a 200-year-old stone barn, gardening and playing sax – where no one can hear him. His 1987 PhD explored the relationship between language and design, and he continues to look for better ways to explain this and unify them in practice. Rob the current President of the International Institute for Information Design.
Link to the article mentioned in the episode: Robert Waller, Jenny Waller, Helena Haapio, Gary Crag & Sandi Morrisseau, Cooperation through Clarity: Designing Simplified Contracts. Journal of Strategic Contracting and Negotiation, Vol. 2, Issue 1–2 (Special Issue: Contracting for Innovation and Innovating Contracts), 2016, pp. 48–68. Manuscript available at ResearchGate. ( Please note that this is a manuscript of an article accepted for publication in the Journal of Strategic Contracting and Negotiation. To cite this article, please refer to the published version.)